Episode 5

Jenny: It feels like a lot of us became accidental trainers around technology in the feminist movement. I certainly did. So, when did you finally admit to yourself that, that you were a trainer?

Karen B: Were we trainers? You know... What is a trainer? We... I don't think anyone in that team would've necessarily called themselves a trainer. I think a lot of the women would've... in the team were self-taught. We had a lot of experience of supporting maybe people using, at that time, sort of email. But in terms of having any sort of formal approach to the way we worked or supported others had trained others or built capacity. I really don't know that we ever even had those kind of conversations. I think what we had was a sensitivity to the importance of contextualizing whatever it was that we were doing with women.

(OPENING THEME TUNE - music intro) 

Ray: Hi and welcome to this episode of This Feminist Internet Life, FTX stories of collaboration, creativity, and care. And believe it or not, we are on our final episode.

Jenny: Yes, episode 5 is the final episode in this series. And we hope that you've enjoyed this journey with us, and learning more about the Feminist Tech Exchange. So with this episode, we take it back to the beginning and we ask these questions: why did you become a trainer? How did you land in training? What are some of the challenges you've encountered as a feminist trainer in tech? And what are some of the joys?

Ray: A core element of the FTX is this informal network of feminist trainers and facilitators in technology, from a range of context and lived realities, who support each other in situations that are often hostile to feminist tech trainers. A network that continuously learns from each training experience, who explore emerging issues which impact feminist tech practice, constantly creating new methodologies and keeping the curiosity around tech alive in networks and movements, and most importantly, hold each other up.

Jenny: In this episode, we will be speaking with Jac, Shubba, Cheekay, Smita, with Flor, Indira, Helen, hvale, and Karen Banks, some of the people behind the FTX, who have experiences of being feminist tech trainers.

Jac: I don't think it's accidental trainer. I think that's a misnomer. And I think we feel this way because digital security training has kind of presented itself as this like, you know, highly qualified, super specialized area of work that you need to truly understand tech so well in order for you to be able to do this. And it's framed in a very particular way that also contributed to, I think not a very helpful dynamics in terms of trying to strengthen the movement as a whole in our engagement with tech, with safety in mind, right?

And with an understanding of safety and strength and resilience in mind. So I think, even the fact that we go, "oh, actually I wasn't, you know, I wasn't really, truly trained in technology and security, and then I somehow got into it because I had to do this". Sort of comes from there and also comes from the professionalization of digital security.

Shubha: I remember having this intense discussion on why do feminist, you know, fear from the stack of feminist digital security trainer. Why do we not want to call ourself trainer? And like I was mentioning earlier as well, that it has taken me some time to convince myself that I'm a trainer on digital security. I still don't use that often, but you know, like imagine if I was a man from a privileged group... I would like run and then claim that, claim that title, I guess.

Cheekay: The language thing. It's the jargon. It's always like the... I think this is where people doubt... a lot of feminist trainers, I know that's where they doubt because they don't frame things in the way that a male digital security trainer would because a male security trainer would probably frame things more close to how the mainstream or they decide what the mainstream is.

So, coming into it as a self-taught trainer, then your language is quite different. Your jargon is different, and coming in from it, from a feminist activist perspective is then your language is also quite different, because your purpose for training is also very different. You're not training for the sake of imparting knowledge to a group of people. You're training because there's a practical need for your community, or your organization, your movement to learn something around this piece of technology because that will keep them safe, or make them, make technology more understandable to them, or because there's a practical kind of like purpose to it.

Ray: You've heard Jack, Shuba, and Cheekay's reflections on how they see the feminist digital security field as different from the usually male dominated mainstream digital security field. How difficult it is for women to actually embody these titles and have the confidence to self declare as trainers.

Jenny: We'll now hear more from Smita and Flor about the challenges of being self taught around the technical knowledge needed and dealing with this thing called imposter syndrome whilst doing it. Luckily, these barriers were not enough to stop these trainers from actually providing the digital care training and the strengthening of their communities.

Smita: I don't think I have a particular instance or time, even now, sometimes I'm not confident that I'm a trainer. It's... I see it as, and this is not to like evade the title or like something like that, but I think like being a trainer or a facilitator is a responsibility and a responsibility to the people who are trusting you to teach them, you know, and work with them.

And It's hard to, like, see yourself in that position because more often than not the people who I have worked with, which is like women's rights activists, like, sex workers, LGBTQ Persons, LGBTQ activists,all of them have done so much more work than me. All of them are so much more experienced and have, you know, been activists and have put themselves on the line, for years, right? Like, and way over me. So, I don't know, there's a little, sort of a trainer implies that you know more, you know better things, like that. And that is not something I'm entirely comfortable with for myself. And part of it is imposter syndrome, part of it is age or like lack of experience around that.

Flor: And for me it was like super challenging because yes, there wasn't like a systematized, let you say like the FTX, like this platform. We didn't have the manuals all together. We, it was the tactical tech toolkit available. But still, it was very, very new for me and I was like super frightened to give this workshop because I was like, "no, I'm, I'm not sure if I know enough". And that kind of the, how do you say, impostor syndrome, that I've been fighting against all of these years because, of course, technology, it's meant to be an area for people that it's very  dedicated and men and, I don't know... I'm a person who is more related to writing and to like human sciences and for this area was the area that my brother used to work with. He's still working on it and he is like, "oh, this is just for me". He wasn't very friendly about sharing with me the knowledge. So, for me it was also like breaking like a wall, a frontier and start like, studying an area that, that I wasn't supposed to be there, kind of.

Jenny: In August 2018, APC Women's Rights Program organized a four day exchange with feminist trainers and facilitators working on digital security and engaged in building stronger and more resilient movements in this digital age. The FTX was held in Dhulikhel, Nepal. This global gathering was a powerful experience for everyone. It was a safe and trusted space to speak about the multiple complexities of supporting activists in digital safety and care, and of being women and gender non conforming people working in a very white and male dominated arena where safety is often militarized, conformist, and tools driven.

Cheekay: I remember in the FTX gathering in Nepal, one of the things that really... I think it brought me to tears because people were... we had an activity where, we asked people to kind of describe what is it that they know and what is it that they want to know. As trainers, as feminist digital safety trainers. And then there was another, question around what is it that they can do, and what is it that they want to be able to do? You know? And then people had such a hard time describing or writing down what is it that they know. Because there was such a doubt in their knowledge, in their skills, so, and then people had a hard, like it was an emotional moment for everyone.  And I think this is a particular experience of feminist technology trainers because a lot of us found ourselves having to be technology trainers because there's no one else to do it in our communities, in our movements. So, all of the skills and knowledge and quote unquote expertise that we have is kind of cobbled up from everywhere. And then kind of confronting yourself to about like, "what is it that I know?" Then it becomes such a confronting difficult question to answer.

Smita: I think it's a little difficult to say, I kind of go in and out of the trainer role. But I think one decisive movement would be the FTX, workshop that happened in Dhulikhel in Nepal in 2018, because I think that workshop was in a room with like 20 other digital security trainers and facilitators. And as I was talking in the group, like, you know, when we were talking about the different issues, when we were sharing methodologies, when we were sharing challenges, I realized that I had a lot to contribute and a lot to ask and learn, but also to share. And I think that was a moment where like, okay, maybe I do... I am a facilitator, maybe I am a trainer.
Before that I really saw it as me sharing what I know, and that is like, it was along the same lines as me sharing random facts with Jenny, you know, I love sharing random facts. So I guess, you know, I am more of a trainer than I realized myself.

Ray: And just like that, in powerful and spontaneous moments, women came to realize and recognize themselves as digital security trainers, and better yet, not as traditional tech driven inflexible professionals, but digital care workers providing support in the online tech environment without disregarding the offline subjects that are behind the devices.

Smita: one of my favorite parts about the FTX meeting was, you know, as I mentioned earlier, and Jenny you also said there was this understanding, there was this resonance in the idea that a lot of us became trainers and facilitators out of need and out of necessity. Right? But we went into the role and we took it on. But because of that, I remember a lot of people saying that it's not like I had training on how to be a facilitator. It's not like I had training on digital security to go and teach others. So, it feels like my expertise is not an expertise, quote unquote. And so the facilitators Cheekay and, Becks and Sandra they made this... big chart paper, they made this like certificate with sketch pens and a blank space where you could all put your name. And it said this, this certificate, you know, is to say that "... person has become a certified trainer". And it was really cute and it was also, I don't know, it wasn't like a certificate was what was needed, but it was a recognition that you know things, and you have worked and for the recognition of the effort that different people had put into it. I have some of those photos. I'll send it to you if you would like.

Jac: And I remember one of the... I don't remember the exactly the first moment. The first moment would definitely be just part of your... Part of your practice and part of your... part of my practice and part of just my everyday activism. But I do remember this one moment of working with a group of queer activists in India in collaboration with Point of View. And I was doing a core training with an Indonesian digital security activist, who was an ally who's like, you know, straight dude, but like was an ally, and how we were both trying to like, hold different sessions and have different kinds of conversations together. And you know, and because I was also feeling very like, "oh, you know, I'm not qualified, blah, blah, blah". I had the same thought in the beginning, but now I no longer like, you know, with greater reflection, I feel actually that's not my burden to take, it was just created and thrust onto me. But I remember feeling quite nervous, I didn't know the tech parts and tah-dah. And then he was kind of like, you know, talking through this like, "this is how the, you know, this is how VPN works..." And then I being very technical about it and I could see, the see of faces being quite like, I don't know what you're talking about and this has no relevance to me. And then kind of like trying to reconfigure this and think about this in maybe in metaphors and in analog, you know, in analogies that made more sense to kind of the communities that we were actually working with.

And I'm like, "oh, okay. Maybe let's think about this as, you know, maybe it's a bit like a safer sex. See the hygiene, how do we think about it this way? How do we think about VPN as like, you know, potentially like... maybe it's also a bit like wearing a condom", and then creating spaces to talk about how do you resist again, I mean, how do you respond to people who were threatening you on Facebook? It's just like things that you wouldn't have in a digital security training module, but we're part at the practices and the tactics that was emerging from the community that we also wanted to like, "oh, that's really interesting. Let's sit down and talk about that" and unpack it and see how this is working for different people in different moments. But yeah, that was my specific memory.

Karen B: I'd say. The first time I really thought, "yeah, I am engaging here as a feminist" was in some of the work I was doing when we were working with techies in other countries to build hosts and, you know, like dealing with some very patriarchal sort of behavior from men and just having to stand my ground because I actually, you know, I had the confidence I knew that I knew more, which was threatening in and of itself, of course.

Jenny: each of the feminist digital security trainers knew intuitively and through the deep experience in communities that the technology cannot be separated from the context and the activism. Another really important aspect is acknowledging that trainers should reflect the identity of the participants and often that these activist participants bring a deep exhaustion to workshops.

You know, as a feminist trainer, I can remember so many times when I have felt lost and doubted my abilities and turned to other trainers for their wisdom, advice, and support.

These times not only helped me up and validated my skills, but each time I learned something new. So now we'll hear more about this essential role that the feminist community brings to the digital care trainers environment by new voices of Indira, hvale and Helen.

Cheekay: So, yeah. The importance of having a network of trainers or any kind of network of practice, the shares... the same in general political values that you do, and in this case a network of feminist trainers is that it, I wanna relate it, number one, it's a fun space and fun is always going to make the work a lot easier for people. And then it's a space where because, because you share values and you share politics, and you share general approaches. You might have different tactics and ways of doing, but are your approaches and your values and why you do the things that you do are shared and common then you can actually relax.

You know, I, for me, I work a lot in, in context where, That I'm not feminist. So having even just the idea that I am part of this loose network, this loose community of feminist trainers is such a comfort.

Helen: Well, it would be appalling if it did not exist. It's one of those things that should exist in actually bringing a feminist lens to any topic is useful and I'm glad that people are starting to change their minds and realize that's a thing. As a community of trainers, I agree that it's nice to have people you can reach out to.

Smita: I really think the existence of this network is important because it can be really isolating, you can feel really alone doing this work, right? India is such a big country, but in spite of that, I can count the number of people who I would call feminist or intersectional digital security trainers. And that's really sad. You need more people. So, like, you know, in Dhulikhel, when we met as a group and all the trainers and facilitators came together, it was special, because suddenly you could talk about things which, you couldn't talk about in other spaces, which others would not understand or you would have to spend more time explaining. Whereas here, suddenly there was a group of people who in spite of, you know, being from different countries, being across the oceans and like being from different continents, you still could connect and you could talk about it because at the base there was something which was bringing us together in our politics and our values, and hence our struggles. And, things that we, we needed support on.

Flor: I think what have helped me is working with others that I feel very trustworthy, like in a trustworthy environment and like also kind of sharing like a friendship or something similar to a friendship with that person, or very, a very close relationship that is almost all the time with a woman, that I knew from, I don't know, a previous event or I had the chance to meet in person. For me, that makes a big difference. Of course, I had some experiences with people working remote, and it was great. And then we, and then we met and it was super great.

But I think for me, it makes a lot of difference that I had the chance to, I don't know, to participate in some like, free culture events, digital culture events in Brazil,  where, for example, I met other people that are and were very engaged with free technologies and that helped me. It was a big support.

Shubha: Whenever we have opportunity, we collaborate in different conferences and events. We'd always try and find ways to meet because even without any tangible output, just like meeting people and gaining energy from it also helps us sustain in our work. So, we always try to do that as well. But I have the like, really good network of friends since the, from the convening from the camp, which I'm always grateful for. But yeah, lots of friendship, very dear friendships.

hvale: There is an amount of think that with your own experience you can imagine. So a global network, it is a space that help you. It's like going, you know, it's an acceleration, but in good terms of being exposed. To so many realities, so many possibilities. So you get enriched, it is a moment that can give you so many way of seeing on imagining. And so when you have for, when your imagination is so enriched, then when you go back to your space and place, you can bring this. And in this you build, you know, solidarity linkages.

Indira: I think it was... it opened us like a map, a different map of the world in which we would see all of these other nodes, these other nodes of creativity. And it was very, very important for me to, to learn all of these different groups and people. And some of them, we later on continue to meet, like in other places, like in IFF for example. I think it was really, really great. And also to somehow walk together, you know, and, and keep meeting us every now and then. I think it was also like very, very nice to exchange, and be connected since then.

Smita: It's important and it is reassuring to know that there is a group of people who you can reach out to in a  moment of crisis and someone or the other from there will get back to you, right?! And I think that is reassuring. It feels like, you know, otherwise you feel like there is no safety in that, there is no one you can fall back to, no one you can connect with and ask about. And that's a really scary thing. I think having a network, this is what it does. I think it gives you assurance that you're not alone in this work. You're not alone in thinking about it and, and not alone in planning, you know?!

hvale: there are a certain extent when we can talk and be understood, but there are experience that I do not have and I might not be credible enough for people that I can experience other thing. I might understand intellectually, emotionally, I can be close, but I would not be able to pass the thing that people need. And that's why we need people that can speak to the different community because they belong or they are closer in, more closer than others. And we forget this, because knowledge is not only about skills, it's not about tools. Knowledge is about recognition, mutual recognition, and this comes from the people that you go to, you know, where you hold this space, this training, this workshop, and so this restitution or actualization of your knowledge, it's really embodied and cannot, you know, not everyone are a good solution for everything.

Cheekay: There's value, there's value in community. Here because who else can understand this challenge of... I don't know what I know because I gotta know what I know because I had to know it, because my movement, my community, my organization needed, needed to learn these things and I was the closest one in the team or in the community or in the movement that had enough technical skills to be able to be the trainer, right? So like that. So like, I think that's, for me, that's the value of it. I think... I hope there would be opportunities for us to gather again. And hopefully that has also changed, you know, like that some people are not doubting themselves as much, you know.

Ray: Community. This word has been used many times, but how does it really connect to feminist digital security practices? What are the links and intersections between the feminist movements and digital care? Can we have one without the other? And how does it relate to the many urgent agendas feminists and justice movements carry?

To answer those questions, we'll have Shubha, Cheekay, Jac, and Smita sharing more about their work and communities.

Shubha: I believe if we are to work with the strategy of cross movement building, we have to work with the existing movements. Either it'd be women's movement or economic justice, movement or environment, a justice movement. I guess the closest one is Women's Right and Feminist Movement because it's also linked to our bodies, it's linked to our identity. And the same identity that we are trying to project and we are trying to keep safe within digital space.

From my experience working with women's rights, feminist movement or sexual right movement is people or activists have so much going on in their life, at work, you know, system that they exist, politic climate in the countries. And there is so much happening and people seem to be tired, and they have fatigue. There is a willingness to learn about this intersection of how do we bring now this digital component to the ongoing work of OGBV (Online Gender Based Violence), let's say, but at the same time, there is also the tiredness that I spoke about earlier, hand in hand. So , I think people do have a lot on their plate and they feel pressure to prove that they're still relevant in the new era of digital.

So I guess there is also this pressure that they feel like they need to learn, and I guess for us as digital feminist, as a security trainer or someone who works on feminist tech, it is to make this whole process not intimidating, making sure that the conversation that we have had in different movement, and connect that to a conversation on feminist tech rather than making it something, as something so new, right?! And also to talk more about pleasure and to talk also more about play along with violence and threat related to digital spaces, while making it comfortable and fun for people to come meet, you know, talk about their concern, talk about their playfulness, and then making, digital or technology part of their daily conversation, rather than making it something very abstract, something is very technical. So, I think that is something we have been doing and can do better.

Cheekay: I think any feminist digital security or digital safety trainer...  the role is varied. Because you don't, I don't... One thing that's unique to feminist digital security trainers or safety trainers is that we're part of the movements that we train. We don't helicopter in or parachute in and then leave, right?! I think there's space for that. I'm not completely dismissing parachute trainers. I've done parachute trainings because that's what those asked of me, but I think more and more the role that feminist digital security trainers and safety trainers play is that they really don't see themselves as... I don't see myself as separate from whatever movement that I am doing training with.

Jac: I think a key part of any feminist practice is training or *praxis* maybe. Yeah, like part of like key component of feminist activism, regardless of what you're doing. One part of it is always kind of like, strengthening, building knowledge, new knowledge, sharing this knowledge and then like kind of learning new knowledge through this exchange and then sharing it again, regardless of the area of work that you're doing.

So in that sense, I feel like, you know, feminist tech exchange and feminist technology and safety and security training is gonna be a key component of feminist tech activism.

Smita: You know, saying that people are coming as techies to the feminist movement spaces to teach you technology is against the very idea of feminism, right? Because feminism says that, we are not just one person and we are not one identity. It is intersectional. We are multiple identities, right?

We are not single issue people. So, our struggle cannot be a single issue struggle. So, like the idea of like techies coming is kind of going against your very own politics and values, and I hope that changes.

Jenny: And so we close this journey of this feminist internet life, FTX stories of collaboration, creativity, and care. We've so enjoyed hosting and speaking to over 15 feminist tech activists from around the Global South, gathering stories of agile creativity, activist collaboration, care in the face of risk, all with humor, pleasure and joy.

Ray: We began in 1995 in Huairo, China at the 4th World Conference of Women, where APC and partners set up a huge computer space to connect women to this, to the world through this new thing called the Internet. These women made it work for them in a time where this kind of global Internet connection was rare. There were wires all over the place. Women on all floors hooking computers up, hundreds of women were curious about exploring this new technology, setting up email accounts and using computers for the first time.

Jenny: From there, we explored the beginning of the Feminist Tech eXchange, hearing stories of how women and gender non conforming people came to technology out of curiosity, but also their need to self identify and build community, stepping into digital security training to translate or interpret technical terms into activist environments and vice versa.

And advocating for feminist policy in tech, such as the amazing Tiny T-Shirt Campaign, where feminists wore t-shirts containing the message, WSIS has a missing paragraph on the front, and the text of the gender paragraph printed on the back, of small size baby Ts. The paragraph was accepted.

Ray: Many struggles came because of how tech is set up as white, male, and nothing. But counter narratives enable an exploration of tech and alternatives to proprietary and mainstream infrastructures, creating space for women in tech. Such as Smita's joy on learning many years after that the pen drive they were given to explore a more open internet at a young age, was a VPN.

Jenny: We moved to building community around digital care, the embodiment of the FTX Safety Reboot, which is a learning tech journey that was created through a writing sprint that in hvale's words, it was one of my foundational moments in terms of community, the FTX Safety Reboot is written from people coming from different cultures, ages, and different experiences.

This is not a product of one person or one methodology. It comes from us. You can feel this inside the FTX Safety Reboot. For trainers like Smitty, the value of the FTX Safety Reboot curriculum is that it is not prescriptive, its versatility is one of its strengths in that it allows a lot of agency for trainers.

Ray: Then we explored a core element of digital safety training, that of care and wellness. Sandra speaks to the need to bring the body of wisdom into our organizing, to build collective liberation.

Nanda from the Trans Feminist Network of Digital Care in Brazil tells us how powerful it is to work together to provide unified support to communities, how a network is a place to provide some way to connect to other facilitators dealing with digital security, and how critical emotional security is so trainers can join and grow together to ensure sustainability.

Jenny: We end this journey by raising how much network support, sustain and hold up feminist digital safety trainers in such meaningful ways. Cheekay emphasizes that what is unique to feminist digital security trainers is that we are part of the movements that we train. That we don't see ourselves as separate from whatever movement we're training with. A pillar of feminist digital safety training is a real understanding and embodiment of what the communities and movements are facing. Because, as Cynthia says, there is no security with a big S.

Ray: Smita reflects on a gathering of feminist digital safety trainers and how deeply special it was. Because suddenly, you could talk about things which you couldn't talk about in other spaces. Things which others would not understand. And in spite of being from different countries, being from different continents, you could still connect. Because at the base there was something which was bringing us together in our politics and our values and our struggles.

Jenny: Thank you for listening. We would really welcome your reflections, so please email us on ftx@apcwomen.org.

Ray: And that's it for Season 1. See you next time.

Jenny: See you next time.